From rec.arts.sf.written Mon Mar 1 14:02:56 1993 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Path: lysator.liu.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!ira.uka.de!scsing.switch.ch!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!dani From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) Subject: Tad Williams: Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (some spoilers) Message-ID: <1993Feb27.044720.17377@netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1993 04:47:20 GMT Lines: 61 "To Green Angel Tower" completes the trilogy started in "The Dragonbone Chair" and "The Stone of Farewell". It was an enjoyable read, but one I found ultimately disappointing. The world-building was unexceptionable, but not not good enough to do more than constitute a stage for the story: The stage owes far more to JRR Tolkien than to Tad Williams. The characters? The only characters we come to know in any depth are the obligatory serving boy whose quest is also his coming of age, and the princess, for whom the quest is also a coming of age -- and those very roles prevent those characters from being particularly rich or interesting. The main failing of the trilogy, however, is in the plot: Virtually everything that happens is irrelevant. Let two examples stand for the rest. One subplot has the Elves, and a supporting group of Human soldiers, ride to attack an enemy stronghold. After several weeks of fighting, and terrible losses, they acknowledge failure, and leave the stronghold to ride to Green Angel Tower. Another subplot has the exiled prince finally ride to war to reclaim a Dukedom. After several weeks of fighting, he wins a victory which turns out to have no bearing on the rest of the story, and then he and his forces ride to Green Angel Tower. Yes, the final book of the trilogy is appropriately titled. By its end, all the significant characters who are still alive have converged upon Green Angel Tower, in a culmination which would have occurred in almost the same way if two thousand of the previous twenty-five hundred pages had never been written. The author, through one of the characters, makes the claim that had it not been for all the scurrying around, the final outcome would have been different, but there is no particular reason to believe this: The final outcome hinged on unforeshadowed coincidences, which is to say that it hinged on the writer's whim, and little else. The trilogy's other failings are cut from the same cloth: skillful writing in the service of sloppy architecture -- resulting in a story that was fun to read, but unsatisfying in retrospect. Take the Tower itself. What at the beginning of the story seems like a fairly ordinary castle, by the end resembles a misenchanted Gormenghast. It's a castle of endless tunnels, shifting architecture, subterranean secrets and horrors, half-deserted except for the veritable armies of characters who seem to be skulking through its hidden passages... and for what? All the effort that Williams pours into this complex seems to go to waste. Unlike Gormenghast, this castle is too much a potpouri of plot devices to become a dominant character in its own right. And few of the characters skulking through the castle seem to have any existence beyond their assigned roles of being at the right place when their brief opportunity comes to further the plot. There's no shame in not being Tolkien. Today's fantasies owe so much to him that the production of well-crafted Tolkien knockoffs is a legitimate artform. But if an author is going to produce so familiar a product, six or seven hundred pages ought to suffice. ----- Dani Zweig dani@netcom.com 'T is with our judgements as our watches, none Go alike, yet each believes his own --Alexander Pope From rec.arts.sf.reviews Fri Nov 18 10:23:48 1994 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.reviews Path: news.ifm.liu.se!liuida!sunic!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!postmodern.com!not-for-mail From: dani@telerama.lm.com (Dani Zweig) Subject: Williams and Hoffman: Child of an Ancient City Message-ID: <3a8p8a$lpj@asia.lm.com> Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written Sender: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 22:44:26 GMT Approved: mcb@postmodern.com (rec.arts.sf.reviews moderator) Lines: 40 Xref: news.ifm.liu.se rec.arts.sf.written:81340 rec.arts.sf.reviews:675 "Child of an Ancient City" is an exercise in good story-telling, fashioned after the traditional Arabian model of people telling stories within stories. It opens with a successful, no-longer-young man, surrounded by friends at a dinner party, telling the tale of an expedition to Armenia, of which he was a member. When the expedition is attacked, the survivors try to make their way home, but wander into the domain of a vampire -- and find themselves telling stories for their lives. Thus the book gives us the framing story of the dinner party, the story of the expedition, and the stories told be the expedition members. It works. The prose is clean, the reader's interest never flags, and if not all the stories the expedition members tell are successful, well, they're not necessarily meant to be. The book is worth reading. A word of warning about format is in place. The book is nominally a 280-page trade paperback, but it's in *very* large print, further eked out by some illustrations. If the story were part of a regular paperback anthology, it would occupy some eighty pages. Aside from the fact that this means that there's less to this book than meets the eye (in terms of minutes of reading enjoyment), having that few words per line of print is actively distracting and annoying. %A Williams, Tad and Hoffman, Nina Kiriki %T Child of an Ancient City %I Tor %C New York %D September 1994 %G ISBN 0-812-53391-7 %P 280pp (very large print) %O trade pb, $6.99 ----- Dani Zweig dani@telerama.lm.com 'T is with our judgements as our watches, none Go alike, yet each believes his own --Alexander Pope From rec.arts.sf.written Sun Feb 4 22:55:07 1996 Path: news.ifm.liu.se!fizban.solace.mh.se!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!news.ksu.ksu.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!boulder!ucsub.Colorado.EDU!brock From: sibylle_dussy@il.us.swissbank.com (Sibylle Dussy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.reviews,rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Book Review - 'Memory, Sorrow & Thorn' by Tad Williams (fantasy) Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written Date: 24 Jan 1996 01:00:18 GMT Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder Lines: 160 Approved: brock@colorado.edu Message-ID: <4e40b2$23s@peabody.colorado.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsub.colorado.edu Originator: brock@ucsub.Colorado.EDU Xref: news.ifm.liu.se rec.arts.books.reviews:1217 rec.arts.sf.written:129906 ~title: Memory, Sorrow & Thorn (trilogy) by: Tad Williams genre: epic fantasy publisher: Legend (Great Britain), DAW (USA) price: GBP 5.99 (each book) 1st Book: The Dragonbone Chair year: 1990 pages: 930 (ca 20 pages appendices) ISBN 0-09-970490-0 2nd Book: Stone of Farewell year: 1991 pages: 874 (ca 20 pages appendices) ISBN 0-09-984810-4 3rd Book/part 1: To Green Angel Tower / Siege year: 1994 pages: 815 (ca 20 pages appendices) ISBN 0-09-931441-X 3rd Book/part 2: To Green Angel Tower / Storm year: 1994 pages: 815 (ca 20 pages appendices) ISBN 0-09-938261-X The English publisher Legend had to divide the original hardcover edition of Book 3 'To Green Angel Tower' into two paperbacks due to its number of pages. It may be that DAW in the US published it as one. Summary 'Memory Sorrow & Thorn' tells the story of Simon, a scullion in the Castle of the High King of Osten Ard (a continent which can be compared to Tolkien's Middle Earth). The moment the old king dies and his son Elias succeeds him to the throne, peace in Osten Ard is gone for Elias has made a pact with Ineluki the Storm King, a dark entity who once was a mortal being. His influence will eventually destroy Osten Ard if he is not stopped. Josua, Elias' brother, tries to rally forces but Elias and Ineluki seem invincible. The only hope of the defenders is to find three ancient, lost swords one called Memory, the other Sorrow and the last one Thorn. Simon participates in the quest for them and is destined to play an important part in deciding the fate of Osten Ard. Review If you first venture into Osten Ard reading 'The Dragonbone Chair' you will need patience. There is such a lot to get acquainted with. Williams divided his creation into many different countries with their own people, their way of life and their language they sometimes speak. You will have a hard time (just as I did) until you know who is who, from which country and on whose side. Williams makes this easier for you by listing every single character at the back of the book. Thus you can always look up, in case you have forgotten a name. Moreover, he based his creations on myth and history as we know it. There are e.g. the Rimmers- men. They live in wooden houses in the cold North. Their leader's throne stands in a hall where shields hang from the walls. They wear long braided beards and are fierce warriors. In short, they are like Vikings. The people in the marshes of the South on the other hand are quite small, brown-skinned and live in clans. Their way of transport is the water and their nearest city Kwanitupul will remind you of Venice. As the story evolves and the protagonists begin their quest, you will visit almost every part of Osten Ard. Like a tapestry, the countries and their history will unfold before your eyes. You will visit the trolls in their mountains and the Sithi (some sort of elves) in their forests. You will wander through decaying ruins of old settlements. You will see many cultures and most will seem remotely familiar to you. To like 'Memory, Sorrow & Thorn', you must be prepared to "get lost" in Osten Ard. Williams has woven an enormous amount of tales and songs into his plot. Sometimes you will read one hundred pages and nothing much happens, except that e.g. Simon and his friends ride towards the cold North and tell each other tales or sing. Most of these tales and songs will later become important for the story but if you are more interested in the solid action of "heroic fantasy", you might get bored and will be disappointed. There are some battles but most conflicts are fought with words and by intrigue. Williams is a very sensitive writer. Although he had to deal with an impossible number of characters, he managed to make every single one come alive. His heroes, even if he describes them as such, are never glorified. I sometimes got the impression that he enjoyed writing about their dark side more than anything else. He also liked their hard times better than their moments of triumph. On occasions, their suffering is described into all detail and reading may become tedious. Comments To me 'Memory, Sorrow & Thorn' was a slow read. Although I am no slug usually, I never managed to read more than approximately 100 pages in one afternoon due to the wealth of information to be absorbed. Moreover, especially during the second book when the protagonists all travel in groups towards a gathering place, Williams splits the storyline into about eight separate threads. This sometimes gave me a hard time because together with the songs and tales it slows the plot impossibly down. At one point I also had enough of looking up words and phrases of made-up languages in the annex of the book and often ignored them. But otherwise, I enjoyed 'Memory, Sorrow & Thorn' very much. The story is suspenseful because you wonder all the time how things can possibly turn out right in the end. Ineluki seems so invincibly powerful. I believe that 'Memory Sorrow & Thorn' is truly worth reading for anyone interested in epic fantasy. Seldom has an author gone to such lengths to think up a complete new world. It must also be noted that in spite of the size of the trilogy Williams managed to answer all questions and leave no open threads. If you liked Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings' and don't know whether you should read 'Memory, Sorrow & Thorn' I herewith list some of the differences I found to give you a general idea, but without arguing the pros and cons. While I believe that the stories have some basic similarity, I know that they can't really be compared: With Williams, you won't have to read prefaces and annexes to get to know Osten Ard. As mentioned above, history and tales are woven into the storyline. Williams doesn't glorify his heroes as Tolkien has a tendency to. While Tolkien often stresses the importance and actions of a group of his protagonists, Williams likes to separate his main persons, make them act on their own and have a deep look into their feelings. Tolkien's ring-bearer fulfills his task long before the end of the book and the rest of the story consists of battles, talking and traveling. Williams has Osten Ard saved later. Constructive comments on this review would be most appreciated. Sibylle Dussy January 19, 1996 ************************************************************* Disclaimer: This review was written on my own accord. I was neither asked to do this nor (unfortunately) did I receive a free copy of the book. ************************************************************* The exclusive copyright of this text remains with the author. It may be distributed on any free computer network but only together with the complete text of this copyright notice. It may not be put on any homepage or FAQ or whatsoever without prior permission by the author. This text may be printed and distributed in paperform for non-commercial purposes. Its appearance in any publication must be permitted by the author in advance. Copyright (c) 1996 Sibylle Dussy (dussys@il.us.swissbank.com) ************************************************************** From rec.arts.sf.reviews Thu May 2 17:33:43 1996 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews Path: news.ifm.liu.se!liuida!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!rail.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!news!news From: ingram@u.washington.edu (Doug Ingram) Subject: Review: "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" by Tad Williams Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written Keywords: author=Doug Ingram Lines: 118 Sender: wex@tinbergen.media.mit.edu (Graystreak) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle X-Newsreader: (ding) Gnus v0.94 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:02:10 GMT Approved: wex@media.mit.edu Lines: 118 Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams Review copyright (c) 1996 by Doug Ingram [very minor spoilers --AW] With the long fantasy series becoming the major focus of most speculative fiction book publishers these days, it's nice to know that occasionally someone will come along with a story so impressive in scope and so rich in depth that it actually DESERVES three or more books. Such is the case with "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn," a four-book series by Tad Williams. This series tells the story of the decline of a human empire in the face of an evil magical plot orchestrated by a wicked human priest (Pyrates), an ancient race of faerie-like beings (the Norns) and their powerful undead rulers (Utuk'ku and Ineluki). For the most part, this saga is told through the eyes of a "kitchen boy" named Simon, who is swept along with events at first but eventually has an important role to play. The story opens as an old and greatly respected king, Prester John, is on his deathbed. His oldest son, Elias, prepares to assume the throne, but the younger son, Josua is troubled by the fact that Elias has grown so close to his advisor, Pyrates. Pyrates is one of those characters who seems to appear in every fantasy series: a twisted, mean soul who so clearly emanates evil that you wonder why any of the characters in the novel would want to do his bidding. I would have appreciated much greater development of this character and his relationship with Elias prior to Prester John's death, and I think that Williams is certainly up to the task of exploring the motivations involved but really only hinted at in this story. Meanwhile, as Simon begins to follow the course of events, he takes up an apprenticeship with an eccentric old wizard named Doctor Morgenes, who tries to teach him a little bit about the history of the realm. Unfortunately for Simon, the apprenticeship is forcibly cut short when he stumbles upon one of Pyrates' foul plots against Josua, and Simon soon finds himself fleeing his home to eventually serve Josua's cause and Morgenes' wishes. During his travels, Simon is befriended by a troll (in this story, a hobbit-like race from the icy North) named Binabik, a very entertaining character who serves as Simon's guide and mentor. The conflict between Elias and Josua soon grows to involve the entire realm as well as the Sithi, a fearie race that split off from the Norns in the distant past. In the end, the human conflict and the magical conflict become the same battle. To say much more about the plot of the novel would needlessly introduce spoilers in the review, so I will simply leave the plot summary at that. After all, probably the strongest element of this series is the plot, and I'd hate to take anything away from it. To really give this series a fair shake, one has to criticize it based upon how it fits within the genre. As I've already noted, there are several "stock" characters/plot devices at work here. You've got the well-intentioned king mixed up with an evil manipulating advisor, the eccentric and forgetful old wizard, the rebellious royal son/daughter, the out-of-depth central character trying to find his/her place in the great scheme of things while remaining true to himself/herself, the ruthlessly evil supernatural force trying to bring misery and despair to the world, etc. But if you've read a lot of fantasy, you realize going in that it is part of the genre, you accept it, and you move on to see what new things this author has to offer. And Williams has a lot of new things to offer. For one, the plot is very engaging and unpredictable. Rather than getting bogged down during this series as I sometimes do in long fantasy novels, I found myself more and more eager to find out what happened next as I read further along. Another great thing about this series is the character development. While Williams doesn't do too much to explore the "evil" characters in this book, he goes to great length to describe the motivations and conflicts of the "good" characters. Characters like Simon and Miriamele show tremendous development throughout the series, and it is all done in a very plausible, interesting (and often surprising) way. In short, this series stands head and shoulders above the masses in the epic fantasy genre. It has a very entertaining story, characters worth caring about, and it holds more surprises than you might think. Perhaps my only true criticism of this series is the perfunctory nature of the denouement, in which most of the plot threads are neatly tied up in a space of about thirty pages. After 2500+ pages of the development of the relationship between Simon and Miriamele, the external and internal struggles of Josua, Isgrimnur, Eolair and Tiamak, and the strained history between the humans and the Sithi, it seems a little more time could be spent resolving some of these threads. On the other hand, if my biggest complaint about a 2600-page series is a nitpick about the final 30 pages, you know it must be pretty good. Doug Ingram // ingram@u.washington.edu // "Carpe Datum" http://www.astro.washington.edu/ingram/books.html (for more reviews) %A Williams, Tad %T The Dragonbone Chair %I DAW Books %C New York %D 1989 %G ISBN 0-88677-384-9 %S Memory, Sorrow and Thorn %A Williams, Tad %T Stone of Farewell %I DAW Books %C New York %D 1991 %G ISBN 0-88677-480-2 %S Memory, Sorrow and Thorn %A Williams, Tad %T To Green Angel Tower, Part 1 %I DAW Books %C New York %D 1994 %G ISBN 0-88677-598-1 %S Memory, Sorrow and Thorn %A Williams, Tad %T To Green Angel Tower, Part 2 %I DAW Books %C New York %D 1994 %G ISBN 0-88677-606-6 %S Memory, Sorrow and Thorn From rec.arts.sf.reviews Wed Mar 8 12:11:11 2000 Path: news.ifm.liu.se!news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Sender: wex@deepspace.media.mit.edu From: tillman@aztec.asu.edu (P.D. TILLMAN) Subject: Review: "Prayers on the Wind" by Walter Jon Williams Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews Approved: wex@media.mit.edu Organization: none Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written Date: 06 Mar 2000 12:15:21 -0500 Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Host: deepspace.media.mit.edu X-Trace: dreaderd 952362923 2944 18.85.23.65 Xref: news.ifm.liu.se rec.arts.sf.reviews:2632 Prayers on the Wind by Walter Jon Williams Review Copyright 2000 P. D. Tillamn Rating: A+. WJW's strongest work to date, and one of the 10 best SF short stories ever. IMO, of course, but folks, it don't get much better than this. This started out to be a review of WJW's newish collection [note 1], but then I read "Prayers," for the fourth or fifth time, and was blown away again. The Gyalpo Rinpoche, Forty-first Reincarnation of the Bodhisattva Bob Miller and Treasured King of human space, has finally agreed to meet the Sang Ambassador. The well-named Sang, a warlike race of centauroid slavers [note 2], are protesting an alleged human incursion into Sang space. "Prayers" combines a twisty story of interstellar power-politics with a wonderful nanotech - Big Library - Buddhist backstory that I dearly hope WJW returns to sometime, plus his signature grace-notes & lovely throwaways: 'A statue of the Thunderbolt Sow came to life, looked at the Regent. "A message from the Library Palace, Regent," it said.' "Prayers on the Wind" has beauty, blood, humor, sex and religion. Exotics human & alien, technology-as-magic, high treason and transcendence. The ending brings tears to my eyes, even after multiple rereads. What more can one ask of fiction? %T Prayers on the Wind %A Walter Jon Williams %B The Good New Stuff %E Gardner Dozois %D 1999 %O Novelette, debut 1991 in When the Music's Over, Lewis Shiner, ed. %O Nebula nominee, 1992. Reprints: 1992, Dozois Year's Best, Ninth Annual %O 1998, Frankensteins & Foreign Devils, collection by WJW, NESFA, $23 Note 1) Frankensteins & Foreign Devils (1998), which appears nearby. Note 2) The Sang are something of an ET Draka. This may not be coincidental: Colonel-Ambassador !urq remarks that she can envision no finer ending than "a glorious death in service to the state." Links: Author Publisher review copyright 2000 by Peter D. Tillman Read more of my reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman (including WJW's Rock of Ages, which is something Completely Different....)