The Avalyn Digest

Today's Topics:
	 Jock Sturgess - *art or exploitation?*
	 Re: Jock Sturgess - *art or exploitation?*
	 RE: ambient for slowdive fans
	 Re: ambient for slowdive fans
	 Re: Jock Sturgess - *art or exploitation?*
	 Re: Re[2]: Autumns sound bites
	 Re: ambient for slowdive fans
	 RE: 7% solution
	 Re: [mbv] skipping Lilys CDs (fwd)
	 Re: ambient for slowdive fans
	 Re: ambient for slowdive fans
	 Windy&Carl
	 what is ambient music?

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:33:56 -0600
From: Agent Cooper 
Subject: Jock Sturgess - *art or exploitation?*

Foreword: I do not post this as a solicitation of a response, I simply post
this to counter-balance a post that was allowed on the list and deserves a
response for the sake of the thousands of children that are sexually abused
every year, if not for the sake of decency and human integrity in general.

> Jock Sturgess is a great photographer who was accused of child pornography
> for his photographs of nude young women and children... His whole point was
> of innocence.... Some people just don't get it....
> Chris

Maybe so Chris - and some people will go to great lengths to defend his work
(and the similar work of others) as "art" so that it's morally acceptable for
them to view naked children.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to capture the essence of innocence by
taking photos of exposed 12 year old girls, but don't you agree that it would
be better to err on the side of *NOT* exploiting immature people who are
unable to make wise decisions?

If you're so into "innocence" why don't you go to a kiddy porn group on
Usenet? I'm sure those images will be much cheaper than Sturgess', and as a
result you may no longer be able to support the argument that you belong to a
cultural elite whose refined minds deserve access to photos of nude children
in order to appreciate "innocence" - but with the money you'd save you could
buy a haircut and nice clothes and meet women your age, completely eliminating
your desire to exploit the young.

One last point to revisit:

> accused of child pornography for his photographs
> of nude young women and children...

Hmmm....

> accused of child pornography for his photographs
> of nude young women and children...

Hmmmmmmm....

> accused of child pornography for his photographs
> of nude young women and children...

Uh, yup. Sounds right to me.

===========================================

Post Script:

I apologize if this is "flame bait", but it's *never* OK for a "cultural
elite" theory ("Some people just don't get it..") to pass unchallenged,
especially when people's lives are affected. It's one thing for me to get
huffy if someone tells me that Loveless sounds like "noise" to them - it's
another thing entirely to defend the exploitation of young people. Sturgess'
pictures are not innocence captured, they're innocence lost.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:49:53 -0500 (EST)
From: mike p 
Subject: Re: Jock Sturgess - *art or exploitation?*

yeah, yeah i know. this is one thread that doesn't need to go on, but
i never thought about it until now.. the pictures Ride used of his always
conveyed innocence to me. they would have been just as innocent with close
on tho. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:23:30 +0000
From: "wade@tapehouse.com" 
Subject: RE: ambient for slowdive fans

I'm going to have to agree with Mike and warn most not to check out
Seely if you want slowdive.  At least I was disappointed.
Colfax Abbey is great, Closedown, Catherine Wheel's(like cats and 
dogs for ambient CW stuff), Perfume tree, rosemary's.
wade

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:02:33 EST
From: Rephlex00@aol.com
Subject: Re: ambient for slowdive fans

Its gooood to see another slowdive fan who likes seefeel and aphex's ambient
stuff, Future sound of london, Arc, and microstoria are also pretty good
ambient bands,
dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:27:44 -0500 (EST)
From: butterfly mcqueen 
Subject: Re: Jock Sturgess - *art or exploitation?*

just to be a "meta-devil's advocate" -- and i apologize for those who don't
really want to read this stuff -- i would like to respond to a few of your
comments.

> I'm not saying that it's impossible to capture the essence of innocence by
> taking photos of exposed 12 year old girls, but don't you agree that it would
> be better to err on the side of *NOT* exploiting immature people who are
> unable to make wise decisions?

i kinda agree with you on this, but this requires some clarification on what
we mean by 'exploitation' and 'unable to make wise decisions.'  i know, i
know, i see the eyes rolling.  but wait -- we hold children to be
responsible for some things and not others (in comparison to adults).
they're not zombies or robots, after all.  but i agree, i would hardly think
that a 12-year old is capable of making rational, autonomous decisions *in
general*.  but we don't know the context in sturgess's case, the details
regarding the child models and their parents.  could we possibly conceive of
way in which it would be okay for them to be in those pictures?

however, this is not my main point.  read again what you wrote to a listee:

> If you're so into "innocence" why don't you go to a kiddy porn group on
> Usenet? I'm sure those images will be much cheaper than Sturgess', and as a
> result you may no longer be able to support the argument that you belong to a
> cultural elite whose refined minds deserve access to photos of nude children
> in order to appreciate "innocence" - but with the money you'd save you could
> buy a haircut and nice clothes and meet women your age, completely
> eliminating your desire to exploit the young.

i think you might be stepping over the line with this comment.  jock
sturgess, to the best of my knowledge, did not release photographs of young
girls and boys spreading their legs in front of the camera, having sex, etc.
there is a line between kiddie porn and "art" -- just like there is one
between adult porn and artistic depictions of nude figures.  the line may
not be sharp and distinct, but this is not to say that a difference does not
exist.

one often-suggested criterion for distinguishing porn and art is this: "does
it make you sexually excited?  does it make you want to masturbate?"  but
then even this question would make some works already regarded as classic
art capable of being labeled "porn."  and then there's the artist's
intention -- but that's not the determining factor, either.

i myself think it is possible to appreciate nudity in art -- aesthetically,
emotionally, whatever -- without getting a hard-on.  (but again, just b/c
one gets excited does it mean it's porn?)  i think sturgess's work is
beautiful, simple in an understated way, and (more importantly in this
context), not even *close* to "raunchy."

i certainly understand your strong reaction -- as children should be
protected and their "exploitation" definitely sucks -- but it seems like
you're making a lot of assumptions about the people who appreciate
sturgess(et al)'s work and attacking them personally.  and when criticism of
"art" turns into personal accusations of perversity, the danger of
censorship (in the form of public embarassment) is all too close.

that said, i think your most valid argument against such expression as
sturgess's is the one i mentioned earlier: b/c a child's innocence, etc. is
so valuable and fragile at the same time, and b/c the factors going into
decisions regarding these things are somewhat ambiguous, "it would be better
to err on the side of *NOT* exploiting immature people who are unable to
make wise decisions...."

; ed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:25:06 -0700 (MST)
From: michael maes 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Autumns sound bites

At 03:31 AM 1/25/98 EST, you wrote:
> nice to see some people like LSD

I agree. I have all of their stuff except the EP. Excellent stuff. Ardor is
incredible. You should all go and get the cd or at least listen to it somehow.  

But still not as good as Slowdive ( I have to prop Sowdive seeing that this
is the reason why we are here, but that doesn't diminish the quality you
will get with Love Spirals....one of the best american bands that I have
heard in a long time)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:36:09 -0700 (MST)
From: michael maes 
Subject: Re: ambient for slowdive fans

> Its gooood to see another slowdive fan who likes seefeel and aphex's ambient
> stuff,Future sound of london, Arc, and microstoria are also pretty good
> ambient bands,

here are a few more which are actually more "ambient" than some others on
the original list ( you know the big one)

Cluster and Eno, ob-1, spiral realms, nik turner, virtualizer, Ynos,
Synaethesia, Zero gravity club.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:36:56 -0600
From: travis salisbury 
Subject: RE: 7% solution

> i've listened the 7% solution cd, no Slowdive influences but i assure that
> is a great psichedelic album (for who loves Spiritualized)

Actually, they aren't influenced by Slowdive. I played a show with them and
we talked about music, they are influenced by Stereolab, Pink Floyd, Oval,
Flaming Lips and of course MBV

Travis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:09:54 -0800
From: flip@mole.slip.net
Subject: Re: [mbv] skipping Lilys CDs (fwd)

>>> no no no...Calvin Klein used the first song off the Lily's "A Brief History
>>> of Amazing Letdowns" e.p. for a tv ad a few years back...The first time I
>>> saw it  was in a movie theater and I flipped
>>
>> You saw a Calvin Klein commercial in a movie theatre?!?! Here in Florida
>> they show previews for other movies!! ;)
>
> I have seen it on TV before....but I was in London for a while(which is
> where I saw it)
> and they show ads before movies pretty regularly.....

Actually, commercials before movies are pretty common back in South East
Asia, too. For e.g. Malaysia (where I used to live) and Singapore, but here
in California it's just still ads and trailers of other movies. Thought I
should point that out as a cultural observation.

Anyone here who likes The Verve? The Nike commercial (with the new theme,
'I Can') during the superbowl actually used 'Bittersweet Symphony'. I liked
it. The song, I mean. And maybe the commercial itself.

Oh since I'm here, has anyone seen Greg Araki's movie 'Doom Generation'? I
think that movie featured one or two of Slowdive's songs. But I can't
remember if those songs can be found on my only Slowdive CD, Souvlaki...

By the way, thanks to whoever is running this list. I first heard Slowdive
playing in a CD store in Toronto and have liked them since. It's been three
years since I bought Souvlaki and I thought I should try to look out for
their stuff on the web...and stumbled on this list. I've only joined the
list a couple of weeks ago, but it's been very interesting! I'm learning a
lot more about music. Thanks, you guys!

Oh, someone mentioned David Sylvian in an earlier posting. You might want
to try  his colaboration CD with Ryiuchi Sakamoto, i think it's called
'Voice (or was it  Songs) from The Beehive'. It's more gothic than ambient
I guess. but I really liked the way it sound. Maybe some day I'll buy it.

Wai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:29:55 EST
From: Flwr2hide 
Subject: Re: ambient for slowdive fans
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

i recomend bowery electric amazing band and check out their remix album
vertigo...... also here are some interesting ambient bands

oval  sound like  - aphex twin meets brian eno
future sounds of london
dj shadow (instrumental hip hop but some ambient scapes in the back ground
           working with radiohead and the verve)
dj krush (same as shadow only has a few rappers on his album but not ever
          song)
james (yes the band that did laid... their album wah wah with brian eno very
       experimental and ambient)
U2 (please dont shoot me).... did an album with their producer friend brian
eno under the name Passengers and the album was called Original Soundtracks
Volume one most u2 fans have never heard of it much less heard it.  i find it
amazing although i am a u2 fan non u2 fans can like it....it only has 4 songs
that sound like u2...eno is in charge on this one uses u2 for musicians....one
song was used in the movie Heat and another was in the animation flick Ghost
in the Shell..all the songs go to moives some made and some imaginary!!!!
sorry to babble on this one but it is a good album...even the u2ish songs
sound more like an eno vocal album they are great...the only song that got any
airplay or was release as a single was the tune miss sarejavo (sp) that
included tenor vocals from pavoratti

3rd eye foundation
cocteau twins' twinlights and ohterness eps one is a piano and strings album
and theother a remix album featuring mixes by seefeel and others

just a curious question have any of you heard of the band mono and if so do
you like them (they are the band whose song is featured in the GREAT
EXpecTaTions trailer)

steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:31:20 EST
From: Flwr2hide 
Subject: Re: ambient for slowdive fans

we have one at my work
let see ambient music is sorta like new age only a bit more creative

s

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:18:48 +0100
From: "LOSING TODAY" 
Subject: Windy&Carl

Does anyone know the Windy&Carl e-mail? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:42:51 +0200 (EET)
From: Peter Peltonen 
Subject: what is ambient music?

> I don't know *anything* about ambient music.  I thought I heard some=20
> people talking about it once, but I'm still not sure if there really=20
> is anything called ambient music.  There doesn't seem to be a section=20
> for ambient music at Walmart! =20

So, what IS Ambient Music? I'll try answer this one. My friend once said
that ambient is trance-like moods made by techno artists using no beat, 
but I guess it is more than that... If you want a longer explanation, 
read the next chapters:

A quote from the back-cover of CD "mvm - a recollectin of proto-ambient 
music from hearts of space":

AMBIENT music. 
Different times, different meanings.

For Erik Satie at this turn of the century it was "FURNITURE MUSIC".
designed to merge with the decor, not so much as WALLPAPER, but as 
something you lived with, that was PART OF YOUR LIFE. The composer 
reportedly scolded the audience for actually paying ATTENTION to his 
music when first performced at an art exhibition in 1920. 

When Brian ENO adopted the term "ambient music" in the late 70s, he
was thinking of compositions that evolved like the processes of nature, 
always changing, but never changing much, rewarding close as well as
PASSIVE LISTENING.

By the time the 1990s rolled around, ambient had re-emerged, but with
a NEW mission: to create a soundscape environment that soothed the 
souls of Techno dancers surfing waves of Ecstasy. Ambient, now re-
dubbed AMBIENT HOUSE, became SURREAL, not serene. Full of 
decontextualized soundbytes and synthetic textures, it wasn't designed
for the background, but as a vehicle for travel through ALTERED 
STATES of mind. At the crossroads of ambient and ambient house lives a
lost generation of composers. These are artits who emerged from the 
cauldron of '70S SPACE MUSIC and progressive rock, listening to Eno,
Cluster, Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze.

It's artists like Robert Rich, who began his career putting on SLEEP
CONCERTS and making album's like "Trances" and "Drones". Or Steve
Roach, who sailed on the winds of German space music before he tacked off 
into his own sound. It's a musicthat's born of the earth with DIDGERIDOOS
and clay pots, but which reaches towards the sky with synthesized atmos-
pheres. Or Michael Stearns, whose spacescapes of the early '80s like 
Planetary Unfolding are classics of the genre.

The INTERSECTION between New Age, Space and Ambient music is rarely 
acknowledged, and is usually dismissed outright, much to the 
bemusement of these artists who are hearing sounds they've developed over 
15 years, as well as the influences they've cited, suddenly appearing
as the next big thin of the 1990s. Packaging and CULTURAL RESONANCE
is everything and the new generation of ambient composers is enjoying a 
hip cache similar to punk music. They're so hip that Richard James, 
aka Aphex Twin, can talk about creating music through lucid dreaming and 
no one bats an eye. That same claim from ingenous New Age artists would 
just draw derision. 

I'll continue this to the end when I've got the time...

Peter
pisara@dystopia.fi

------------------------------

End of Avalyn Digest Vol.98 #12
********************************

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This page was last updated Jan 27, 1998 by Erik Söderström

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